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What are the biggest challenges for Indonesia's foreign policy at this time?

It has now been 10 years since Indonesia transformed itself from a totalitarian state to what is now the third-largest democracy in the world. As a result some are calling Indonesia a template for the possibility of democracy, Islam and the development of modernity to go hand in hand. One of my challenges is how to ensure the democratic transformation within Indonesia finds its reflection in our foreign policy. There will be continuity and change. One of the many aspects of foreign policy we will continue to nurture and maintain is our preoccupation with Asean.

In what ways will Indonesian democratisation be able to influence Asean in the future?

We have been very modest, humble and sensitive. Our national experience cannot be imposed on others. One thing we learned in our democratisation process [is that] it is essentially a national or domestically driven process. All changes since 1998-99 happened not because of external pressure … but because of a truly grass-roots national process. With that experience in mind, we would be the last country to pontificate to any one of our neighbours on how to proceed. At the same time, we have a real interest to ensure that our foreign policy - in this instance at Asean - is not disconnected from our national outlook.

That is why, in 2003 when Indonesia chaired Asean for the first time since 1999's transformation … we made a strategic choice to begin a process of Asean's own transformation from a loose association to a community. In 2002, Singapore had proposed an Asean economic community. It was Indonesia that brought the security community concept, democratisation, good governance and other liberties which are now included in the Asean lexicon.

The point I want to make is that we are not imposing. Asean is made up of countries with a diverse spectrum of political systems. It would be foolish to impose one model on such a varied group.

Could you outline the three most important |elements of the world's third-largest democracy?

One would be the importance of resilience. Back in 1998-99, quite a few obituaries were written for Indonesia. East Timor had just separated; the Aceh situation was difficult; Ambon and Moluccu had all kinds of ethnic and inter-communal conflicts; Papua and Sulawesi were festering issues.

Obituaries were written predicting the disintegration of Indonesia.

But resilience is one quality we possess. It is important that even in the worst of time, a country must have the confidence in its own ability to survive.

The second point is the need to have a sense of common ownership and participation. Our democracy is a messy one. We have such a rich diversity of views - we have the government, parliamentarians, individuals. We have to prepare a [system] that everybody can have a sense of owning. In the final analysis, democracy has to deliver. It is still a huge work in progress for us. There must be a democratic dividend. We must ensure that people's living conditions and the economy improve. These issues are still our big challenges. Beyond the elections, people can say that 10 years after the reform, their lives are in better shape than they were before.

Are you happy with the direction Asean is moving in politically and in terms of the security community?

We all have our own wish lists. We have learned sometimes you do not have always to be at the front in order to lead. In Asean, consensus is very important. Some of the democratic institutions that we have come up with, for example, the Asean Intergovernmental Commission for Human Rights, could be a bit more active on the debate over promotion versus protection of human rights. [But] the alternative, of no debate, is far less desirable. At least it is there, and we will continue to invest in the mechanism and build confidence so that over the years, other Asean countries can feel comfortable.

But then we look around us to other developing regions and see that we cannot be left behind if we want to be at the centre of things.

Look at Africa - they are being quite strategic and farsighted in developing their human rights mechanisms. We must not set too low a standard.

Will Asean have a common foreign and defence policy in the future?

People often compare us to the EU. It is not quite the right yardstick. A common foreign and defence policy is not something we foresee as an objective. At the same time, we find ourselves at the UN with increasingly similar policies on many issues.

What is needed is simply better communication, coordination and coherence. If we compare notes and then find |commonalities such as on the issue of peacekeeping, we can build on that.

I had a good conversation with Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya on precisely this subject. How can Asean raise its profile within the UN? We came to the conclusion that we need three or four blue-ribbon issues that Asean can rally around at the UN. One issue that came up is the peacekeeping force.

Individual Asean countries have been contributing to UN peacekeeping forces separately. We can have a better impact if we coordinate our policies so that we can appear under an Asean flag. We can do the same for disaster management and issues of climate change.

 

Critics are saying that Indonesia is no longer interested in Asean because you are a member of G-20, and the world's largest Muslim country and third-largest democracy. Is that the case?

It is inconceivable for Indonesia to set Asean aside. How can we play a role in the G-20 or the UN in general without at the same time being a positive force in our own region? Our voice in the G-20 and the UN is strengthened by our constructive role in Asean. The roles are mutually reinforcing.

We don't want all our eggs in one basket. One of the key features of our foreign policy in the next five years will be looking for different ways to be part of solutions. Indonesia possesses qualities that can aid unity [between countries] rather than division.

The Asean Charter will be one year old soon. What on the Charter does Asean need to do more of?

Just do it, basically. Asean officials have the habit of coming up with more layers of legislation - more pillars, Bali Concord II, plans of action, blueprints and roadmaps. All promises and plans are there. Lets deliver on them. Otherwise, people will ask what we want to get out of it.

After one year of the Asean charter, where are we? Are we further down the road than a year before. I am not pessimistic if we compare with where we were in 2003.

When Cambodia hosted the Asean meeting in 2001, Indonesia caused a bit of stir by "washing our dirty linen in public". Unbidden, we told our Asean colleagues about Aceh, Papua and all the ills that were affecting us. We cannot simply say no one mentioned it but expect you [Asean] to support us. The East Timor issue told us that we need to earn quality support from Asean. Our hope then was that it would change the habit of Asean if one of its principles was to take the risk of bringing everything into the open. The norm within Asean now is to show and tell. At least now it is normal for ministers to share what is happening in their countries, including problems and challenges they are facing to get support - a different corporate culture than we had before ... more sharing and engagement. It is not quite ideal yet, but we are getting there...

How would describe Asean's efforts on Burma so far?

Asean has been less than successful on Myanmar, as have others.

The international focus on Myanmar has not been Asean's alone. [But] we have until recently over-simplified approaches - sanctions versus engagement. This is potentially damaging as we are cancelling each other out - doubting and second guessing one another's intention.

Actually, the international community wants to see Myanmar live up to its own seven-point road map commitment including democratisation. Now, the policy is more thought through, not one-size-fits-all.

Indonesia has been approached by some Asean countries to serve as a mediator for the Thai-Cambodian conflict. Any progress?

We are very much in listening mode. We have listened on many occasions to various discussions and hope to identify common ground and build confidence.